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Liverpool Fans – Deluded, Spiteful And Fickle. The New Newcastle?

I automatically have a deep mistrust, resentment and loathing of any football fans that bestow upon themselves the title of “Best Fans In The World™.” Not only does this statement indicate a willing and almost purposeful ignorance of the abundance of other incredibly passionate, committed and supportive fans of other football clubs from all around the world who may be worthy of such a title, it also seems to surmise in most cases that being the “loudest” fans translates into being the “best” fans.

Think of Newcastle fans, one such group of self-proclaimed “greatest” fans. They seem to define being a great fan as protesting outside the club at 11am on a Tuesday morning when everyone else it at work, because the local post-box hasn’t been proclaimed as an accurate, 1:1 scale representation of Kevin Keegan’s phallic endowment, or something to that effect. Had it not been for the astringent criticism and heckling of one Sam Allardyce in the form of protests and the like by the Newcastle fans back in the 07/08 season, Allardyce would probably have still been in a job come the end of the season and, based on what most experts and pundits believe, they would have most likely not been relegated that season. However, the fans believed that their “passion” justified their deluded, myopic beliefs, and that their actions only went on to enhance the credibility of the claim that Newcastle fans are the “best in the world.” Well, it now appears that Liverpool fans are in on the act as well.

Now I’m not making a direct comparison between the current Roy Hodson situation at Liverpool and the Sam Allardyce saga from Newcastle a few years ago here, there is one vital difference in that, on the whole, Hodgson has done a poor job at Liverpool and needs to be replaced by the summer at the very latest. However, I can’t help but feel that Liverpool fans have contributed significantly to their struggles this season and the massive fall from grace of Mr Hodgson, the way they’ve acted has resulted in what can only be described as a self-fulfilled prophecy. By having got on the back of Hodgson so early and by having set such high standards for him based on their blinkered vision of the standing and current ability of their own club, they’ve never really given Hodgson the chance to operate in a more constructive and productive pressure-free environment that would have been more beneficial for all parties involved.

But why did the Liverpool fans get on Roy’s back so early and essentially fan the flames of the fire that has all but burned to the ground what remained of their clubs traditions and dignity? Well it’s obvious; it’s because the Liverpool fans, just like Newcastle fans, have a massive messiah complex, and Roy Hodgson has the unfortunate disadvantage of not being Rafael Benitez (the flaws of whom I have delved into previously, link here)

Now before my face succumbs to a pugilistic rage of scouse fury, let me point out that Liverpool fans have also expressed similar sentiments to those above, and not just any Liverpool fans, some of the more educated of the predominantly deluded scouse rabble (link here)

Am I the only person who is starting to think that Liverpool are slowly becoming a poor imitation of Newcastle United?

Hear me out:

  • A club overly-romantic about past glory.
  • Fanatical supporters who believe they’re entitled to success.
  • A succession of beleaguered managers that have failed to win the title.
  • Fandom overriding rational logic.
  • Disgruntled players who see their future elsewhere.
  • A belief that a messiah in the form of an ex-player/manager will come and save the day.

You see, not such a far-fetched comparison is it? Some similarities are uncanny. The only thing missing is a fat, meddling, buffoon from London! Hold on, isn’t Roy Hodgson from Croydon? (ok, that was a little harsh).

As a Liverpool fan I’ve been perturbed and a little surprised about all the column inches Liverpool FC have been consuming over the last few days. There seems to be genuine hysteria emanating from the club.

It was embarrassing to hear cries of “Hodgson for England” and “Dalglish” from the fans during the recent home defeat to Wolves. Alright yes, Roy Hodgson hasn’t done a good job as Liverpool manager. Actually in truth, he hasn’t even done an average one but the level of hostility towards the man is becoming unacceptable.

Every interview he has conducted has been brutally assassinated and taken out of context. Even something as banal as Hodgson rubbing his face is now up for discussion on the LFC internet forums. Ex-players who in the summer were praising his appointment have now trickled out of the woodwork to publicly damn him

Liverpool fans are supposed to be the most knowledge football fans around (truly a self-proclaimed notion). Therefore, can they not see that the club as a whole is going through a rebuilding process and need some patience? A magic wand will not be waved and everything will be rosy again. No plaster or band-aid can cover over the mistakes made in the last 18 months.”

Patrick Barclay of The Tim

es has also made similar accusations of the Liverpool faithful:

“Poor though the team were [against Wolves], however, nothing insulted the club’s traditions more than the chant aimed at their manager, whom the FA has considered as a potential successor to Fabio Capello. “Hodgson for England” yelled sections of a support once regarded as fundamental to the fortress-like character of Anfield. Today, when Bolton Wanderers come, the same people will belt out You’ll Never Walk Alone without a whit of irony.

Anfield will always be a great place to watch football. But it has been belittled in the eyes of the wider game. The neutrals privileged to be there in May 2005 will always remember the winter when Anfield went flaky, not only pointing Hodgson to the door but holding it open – let’s not forget this either – to Kenny Dalglish.

My impression is that, although disgruntled Liverpool fans have a huge variety of alternatives o Hodgson in mind, most want Dalglish in at least temporary charge (the more delusional imagine that Pep Guardiola or some such luminary will beat a path to Anfield at the end of the season).

Some want Rafael Benitez – free after his dismissal by Inter Milan and still regarded by many as the club’s best manager since Dalglish reeled away, suffering terrible symptoms of stress, in 1991 – back straight away. But essentially there is a yearning for an icon.

Remind you of any other club? It would do if they yearned for Kevin Keegan rather than Dalglish. Sections of Liverpool’s support have come to resemble their Newcastle equivalents in times of disappointment: angry rather than sad, but still bereft. And now ready to welcome a messiah. Newcastle fans, weighing the respective merits of Keegan and Dalglish at St James’ Park, might even joke that they’ve picked the wrong one.”

I also can’t stand fans that state that their club “deserves” success and the recent turn in their fortunes, that they’re entitled to some silverware because of the years of under-achievement that they’ve had to endure (i.e. City fans), despite the fact that there may be a plethora of other “deserving” clubs out there (the criteria for “deserving” and “entitled” not having been defined of course). Well this is another unsavoury attitude that Liverpool fans have decided to adopt, lambasting Hodgson for not achieving the success that Liverpool, being such a massive and historic club, are “entitled” to. But no club, anywhere, is “entitled” to success. Yes, some clubs should be achieving more based on the resources they have available (City’s oil-money), but nobody is “entitled” to success, no matter how rich their history and traditions.

There is another great piece on the above issues by Lawrence Gray-Hodson at Three And In (link here) which I’d recommend reading in its entirety, but a relevant extract is shown below:

It’s been obvious since day one that Liverpool fans don’t like Roy Hodgson. To them he’s like a step-parent who has taken the place of their real dad. Yet they ignore the fact that their real dad was a rioja swilling buffoon who spent £20m on Robbie Keane. If Benitez was their real dad and Liverpool was their mum then their dad used to get into bad moods and slap her about the face a bit.

Yet when it’s your real dad you’re willing to overlook his flaws. Forget that he alienated your best midfielder so he could bring in the honest but limited Gareth Barry. Forget that when the title was there to be had his team conceded four goals to a Russian who barely moves from a 20 yard patch the entire game.

Along came Roy and he is kindly. He tried to win the Liverpool fans over by bringing them a present. “Hi”, he said, “I’m not trying to take the place of your real dad but here’s a Joe Cole to play with”. Granted, it’s a bit like getting second hand lego that has been chewed by a dog but at least the thought was there. From the start the famous Liverpool support turned their nose up at him.

That’s not support. That’s the opposite of support. You know the Scousers, so happy to wallow in misery that I bet many of them are enjoying this season much more than title winning ones because it means they always have something to cry about. I fully expect a group of celebrities to make a video about how Hodgson is killing their club. First it was Hicks and Gillett, then Hodgson, whoever comes next will be to blame I imagine.”

Now Liverpool aren’t the only ones guilty of having such fickle, deluded, short-sighted fans, lots of clubs are and it’s an increasingly modern phenomena, especially for the bigger clubs with larger fan-bases. United had the “Sack Fergie, Sell Giggs” brigade of the early 2000’s, but luckily the mini trophy drought at that time managed to filter out a few of the less committed fans. And judging by the attendance of roughly 35,000 for Liverpool the other night in a stadium with a capacity of approximately 45,000, despite the game being on a bank holiday and not being televised, I think that we may be seeing the true extent of the numbers of the Anfield faithful, and the contemporary identity of what is the modern Liverpool fan.

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No Responses to “Liverpool Fans – Deluded, Spiteful And Fickle. The New Newcastle?”

  1. Dex says:

    In response to the earlier question about why liverpool fans are on this site it is because you write articles about Liverpool and they get posted as news links on Newsnow website and other Headline collection sites.
    So basically you guys spend too much time writing and thinking about Liverpool. It won’t happen again in my case as I will be removing your publication from the list shown, I just assumed that it was a liverpool link to a liverpool blog and i guess that is the case for most Liverpool fans who come here.
    Bottom line’ if you dont want LFC traffic, write about your own team lol
    By the way don’t bother replying to me a I won’t be coming back I just wanted to explain why you were getting all the traffic, if you had more intelligence you could have worked it out yourself instead of making a dumb ass comment aboout us scouring the Man U blogs and making yourself look retarded.
    PS: Your article is crap in many ways, can’t be bothered listing them but you have no understanding or knowledge of the situation and are using general and broad comparisons to to associate links that suit your bitter, smearing piece. Maybe you are an only child and used to attention, maybe you grew up in a broken home and your parents over-compensated in order to make it up to you, maybe you were raped by your new step-dad and feel the need to lash out, maybe your a closet homosexual and the torment of hiding is killing you inside, either way, Buh-Bye

  2. Leffebeer says:

    Rabble, thats rich.

    From a team who’s supporters line up outside old trafford once a year then charge and attack the stewards and smash up the club shop….in a so called protest.

    Uneducated thugs.

  3. Phil K says:

    Its amazing how many morons have went down this “deluded Newcastle fans” route
    And it’s always by fans with serious ego problems that are responsible for it.
    In this case, a “I’ll support you evermore as long as the trophies keep flooding in” Man U fan – another “My father was born in Manchester actually” type ?
    Thing is, they never – and I mean NEVER have any proof.
    In fact they just accept and repeat endlessly the ranting of southern journos (handy for this poster) – that we are deluded, and disloyal – this despite a 44,000 average in the Championship, remember – and we wanted Hughton out, then we are back to being responsible for his dismissal despite the fury in support of Hughton – you’d have thought even a drip like this poster would have the intelligence to think…”hang on, this doesn’t add up”
    But no. Thats what being a gloryhunter does to you I suppose.

  4. Denise Williams says:

    I aqm sorry to dissapoint you Jack but this article is very true. I used to support Liverpool in fact I followed the club from the age of three years until six years ago. The reason I no longer support them? Look no further than the appalling and disgusting behaviour of the fans. The fans who took a totally irrational hatred firstly to Gerard Houllier a man who almost gave his life for the club simply because he was French and sold their so called God. A God incidentally who spent more time being carried drunk out of night clubs than he ever did on the pitch.

    Secondly they hated Michael Owen and threatened to murder him and his entire family. Why? Well simply because he replaced their so called God. Then they have the bare faced cheek to call him a traitor. I mean would you stay at the club with your family being threatened? Not likely especially bearing in mind the other lies they spread around about him, one claiming he was a heroin addict, another which they daubed all over the walls at Mellwood and elsewhere around the city accusing him of having a homosexual love affair with the afore mentioned Gerard Houllier. Not to mention the one generated by their other God who I would more accurately describe as the fat Spanish waiter claiming Owen was a xenphobic who formed cliques and abused the foreign players. However this lie was exposed for what it was by Gary Mcallister.

    Now these fans have hounded, abused and humiliated both their former owners and now Roy Hodgson. As I say I was a Liverpool fan and was very proud to be so back in the seventies and eighties when Liverpool fans were admired and respected the world over. However all that changed with this generation who have brought shame and disgrace on this once great club with behaviour that would make the great Bill Shankley and Bob Paisley turn in their graves.

  5. Charlie says:

    As a newcastle supporter I can say I told my liverpool mates that they were looking more and more like us a season ago. A shocking owner. Overpaid underperforming players. A recent change of manager and from the looks of it another one is in the works. I dont think they will get relegated but they need stablity and the time to rebuild.

  6. Charlie says:

    Anyones fans would do the same….

  7. valle says:

    Newcastle supporter

    Manchester United fans dont have the right to label any oposing fans for either fickle, spitefull or deluded… Over the years you have been blessed with glory, you take home trophy after trophy as if its your right.

    When have you last stood in the rain, screamin support at your lads till your throat soars and bleeds, while fighting relegation? When have you last played in the championship, and while there filled your stadium with loyal support? Tell me, where will all the Man Utd fans go once the going gets tough and the boys on the pitch really need their support? Will we then, truly see good use of the words deluded, spitefull and fickle?

  8. Jack says:

    Hey Tom I wasn’t scouring the man u sites. This site came up in an aggregate site for LFC.
    Anyway I never listen to people when they big themselves up. It matters what others are saying. In the case of LFC the number great players and managers who have spoken of the Liverpool fans and their passion is enough for me. Funny how teh same can’t be said of the man u ‘fans’. Oh sorry scratch that. One of your own captains mentioned your fans and a certain type of seafish sandwich. As for trying to belittle Rafa, maybe you guys are still realing from those 4 goals in your back yard. We smashed Real madrdi 4-0 and went to the Cl final twice in 2 years. he got us ranked no 1 in Europe. How dare this ‘writer’ compare him to roy who has won zilch. It defies belief that so much nonsense could be written.
    The reason we are so different in our treatment of Roy is that he is so different from our previous managers. They’ve won things. He is so inept its untrue. he has broken so many records of the negative kind that I just don’t have the heart to go into it. Anyway coming from a bunch of ‘fans’ who wanted Fergie to retire after he proved his winning ways is a bit rich.

  9. nufcfan says:

    “Had it not been for the astringent criticism and heckling of one Sam Allardyce in the form of protests and the like by the Newcastle fans back in the 07/08 season, Allardyce would probably have still been in a job come the end of the season and, based on what most experts and pundits believe, they would have most likely not been relegated that season.”

    Pretty massive factual mistake there – Newcastle WERE NOT relegated that season. The relegation was a year and a half after Allardyce left, and happened for a whole host of reasons that have little or nothing to do with Sam Allardyce. At the end of the season you are talking about, the future looked bright – a good manager getting the side playing the best football seen since Bobby Robson’s tenure. It was down to the owner screwing this up, the subsequent instability, and a rash of poor decisions including hiring joe kinnear that led eventualy to relegation. Nowt to do with Fat Sam.

    Furthermore, the fans didn’t get rid of Allardyce, the owner did. The fans were actually chanting Big Sam’s Black n White army at the final whistle of his last game- an away draw in the cup against a side a division below Newcastle. You won’t hear liverpool fans chanting Hodgson’s name if Liverpool draw against a Championship side.

    And finally, despite the Keegan jokes, there were no chants for Keegan coming from the Newcastle fans in the lead up to his appointment, no online campaigns to get him installed. His appointment was a surprise. Meanwhile, the Liverpool fans actually have been chanting for their own club legend in the form of Kenny Dalglish, a bloke who has not managed at any level for 13 years, bar a couple of months in the SPL over a decade ago, opposed to Keegan who had only been out of premiership management for 3 years.

    The liverpool fans haven’t exactly covered themselves in glory in the past few months, but no point dragging nufc fans into this, inventing a straw man stereotypical and misleading image of them in order to make a point. it also helps to actually know what you’re on about too.

  10. Frank Scicluna says:

    @ Valle, I just want to point something out about you writing the following “When have you last stood in the rain, screamin support at your lads till your throat soars and bleeds, while fighting relegation? When have you last played in the championship, and while there filled your stadium with loyal support?”

    Where you around in 1973-74 when United were indeed relegated? Then the following season when in the second division United had the largest home attendances of any other club including those in the first division?

  11. valle says:

    Frank Scicluna…
    On account of your logic when defending the Utd support i could argue that NUFC still are a very successfull club, considering that you only have to look back to 55 for our last FA cup… Heck, lets go all the way back to early 1900 for our last league title… I bet there would still be as many players around from our winning team of those times as there is Man Utd fans from 73-74 who didnt desert to City to escape the gold diggers you call support nowadays.

    If you dont accept that the majority of United these days are gold diggers, then you, my good sir are indeed the delusional supporter.

  12. Frank Scicluna says:

    Sorry valle, do you mean so called ‘glory hunters’ when you talk about ‘gold diggers’? Let me remind you that many of the 30 million plus fan base United has around the world either started supporting United in 1958 when the club was at its lowest ebb after almost being destroyed in Munich, or have continued with the support that their fathers instilled in them just like my children have. A tragedy such as Munich is a strange time to become a ‘glory hunter’ or as you put it a ‘gold digger’

  13. Tom Addison says:

    Jesus, I go to the pub for a couple of hours and I’ve got every scouse and geordie man and his dog at my throat! Right, here we go…..

    Appears I made a massive mistake with my facts on Newcastle, for which I apologise. I normally research such facts in depth but relied too much on my memories (which are obviously wrong), and for that I apologise. That’s why I normally copy and paste (and reference I might add) the articles of professional journalists who properly know their stuff. I may have got my facts wrong, but Paddy Barclay certainly doesn’t.

    The rest of it, however, I stand by. I would read through and respond to all the comments, but considering I’ve been up since 5am that aint gonna happen I’m afraid. I can see some agree with what I say, some don’t, I think I still made a few good points (despite the Newcastle-based errors).

  14. Ian says:

    Rubbish.

    Paddy Barclay has an opinion. It doesn’t mean you’re obliged to espouse it as your own and dress it up with your own little flourishes.

    The rest of this, although well worded, is pretty ignorant.

    One of them self proclaimed greatest fans ™

    Good evening.

  15. Tom Addison says:

    I think a sufficient level of my own independent opinion is clear in the post, “espousing” the likes of Paddy Barclay and the others I referenced is done merely to show that I am not alone in formulating these ideas, and also to highlight ways that others have reached a similar conclusion. I am well aware, unlike others of themselves, that my opinion is not absolute, as has irrefutably been pointed out by some Newcastle fans regarding my factual errors.

    The opinion of someone as well informed as Paddy Barclay isn’t that man’s exclusive intellectual property. What if, I don’t know, Oliver Holt says Lionel Messi is the best player in the world? Would you condemn me for expanding on his position and backing it up with my own interpretation of the evidence available? Taking other people’s research and expanding on it and re-interpreting it; you’ve never read an academic research paper have you? Don’t a lot of articles have the structure of:

    Person X says this
    Here’s why they believe this
    Here’s where I agree
    Here’s where I disagree
    Conclusion

    Would you condemn the structure and methods of my argument if you agreed with the overall conclusion? Would you heck.

    Good evening.

  16. Dennis says:

    “I also can’t stand fans that state that their club “deserves” success”

    Haha. What about all the MU fans complaining that they “deserved” to beat Bayern last season?

    Forgive me for saying this, but from what I’ve seen on the internet (Not many of my RL friends support this club), MU fans are among the most arrogant and ignorant of all. Typical premfaces, if I may

  17. Rubbish says:

    Despite this article being factualy incorrect and based on cliches.

    I have a question for the author. Considering he has just been booted from his latest club Blackburn Rovers, where the majority of their fans couldn’t wait to get on talksport and slag off his style of football. Would you like Big Sam to take over at Man United next season? Think long and hard about that one. I won’t bite at your tired and boring cliched waffle about NUFC fans being deluded, most fans I know would be happy with survival this season so put that in your pipe and come back when you learn some facts about football.

  18. Rubbish says:

    # Liverpool not Man United

    ps. Hope you get Dog Leash as your fans are calling for. (your deluded fans) At NUFC we have learnt all these lessons and are now on the path to stability, your club will learn eventually but not before there are futher problems.

  19. Genghis says:

    While wholeheartedly condemning the trash written by the author. I must also condemn the trash written by some LFC supporters on here. What a bloody cheek they have complaining about being compared to NUFC supporters. Both they and MUFC supporters have been spoiled with success for donkeys years. Whereas others, ourselves included have been on the margins of success (semi finals 2nd 3rd champions league etc) or wallowing in the depths. We have supported in serious numbers continuously throughout. (fickle out of the window look it up in the dictionary). We saw last season the merry bands of the championship. It was humbling and extremely enjoyable to meet the many ardent supporters of teams who can only dream of our reletive success in comparison to them. Not them the spoiled trash of the EPL comparing there godlike status to each other like the aristocracy of old. I would dearly love to see the MUFCs LFCs of this world in this position. NUFC (delusional) we feel WE (the supporters) deserve better than we have been dealt, not the club. It is WE that have put the time and money up in the hope of a trophy. I dare say there are plenty of other clubs fans could say the same, and do. But to hear these lot LFC, MUFC, and others whining about a few months or years is beyond a joke. There goes the fickle brigade. MUFC may well have had record crowds in the 2nd division. We still beat that record last year. Oh for a trophy so we can be successful. Shaddap you wanker and all the other wankers that have the gall to have a dig at us and anyone else who only want what you have. Any success, anytime in any competition would be great. I would love it, love it, if we beat you. Oh and bye the way. We all knew and still know that Keegan is a self serving child.

  20. Real Red says:

    As a Liverpool fan, I have to say that this article is a bit too blinkered (even when you factor in any loss of objectivity due to reasonable partisanship). You have to remember that the media, not Liverpool fans, have created the image of Liverpool fans. Most Liverpool fans don’t care what other fans think of them. We want our club to succeed. Simple as that. One or two blaggards will say something stupid, but for the most part, we subscribe to what we call the “Liverpool” way. Hodgson failed to heed that way when he criticised the fan agitation against Hicks/Gillett and its been downhill since. When we say he isn’t a Liverpool manager, we are merely stating that he has forgotten Shankly’s stance on the importance of fans – Shankly saw them as the most important aspect of the club. Hodgson saw his experience and beliefs as being bigger than the club.

    I didnt want Rafa to leave. Not because I am deluded into thinking he was the greatest thing ever, but he has, for good reason, been declared the 9th best coach in the world over the past decade by Fifa, alongside Wenger, Mourinho and Ferguson. Replacing him with number 92 – Roy Hodgson – was a big mistake. If you want to know what we mean by poor tactics, read Tomkin’s excellent site and more importantly, look at the chalkboards on Guardian etc. They speak for themselves.

    And please don’t bother quoting Barclay et all to us. We’re not stupid. There were elements of the press that wanted an English coach in charge of Liverpool and they did their damndest to drive Rafa out. Can you imagine what the papers would have been saying if Rafa was presiding over Liverpool in this state today? Hodgson’s been lucky, with his London media pals brushing it off as irrational Liverpool support for Rafa. For all his idiocy, we could count on Rafa to research games and not stick stubbornly to one set of tactics. Hodgson was, by all accounts, outthought and outmaneuvered by Kean and McCarthy. Rafa would never have been out-thought by them. At best, he’d be forced into a stale draw with Liverpool dominating possession. Hodgson’s team can’t even do that.

    FWIW, Benitez did not buy Keane for 20 million. Rick Parry did. And Rick Parry got sacked for his troubles. Incidentally, the same gentleman was responsible for Liverpool failing to replace Alonso with Barry. But then again, its easier to criticize the foreigner than it is the Englishman, eh?

    4,000 season ticket holders missed the match against Bolton. They did so deliberately. TO make a point. Hodgson has come dangerously close to alienating 3 key players in their mid 20s – Reina, Torres and Agger. We can afford to lose Hodgson. We cannot afford to lose those 3 together. Of course, it doesn’t help that none of the continental stars want to play for Hodgson, a coach they’ve barely heard of. They can see his tactics too. And I don’t think they want to waste time under him. Liverpool needs a coach who falls in at least the top 20. No. 92 is not acceptable. People living in an English bubble may not appreciate it off the bat, but foreign players do look at the coaches and coaches like Hodgson carry no weight. What would the premier league be without foreign players? I ll let you ponder that.

  21. Ian says:

    Tom, the ‘conclusion’ of your argument is that Liverpool are deluded, spiteful and fickle – just like Newcastle. Although you phrase it as a question, what follows shows it to be your belief.

    Ps: I review research papers when I need to; however this is not a dialogue about Paddy Barclay’s ‘research’, more your perspective of other sets of fans. Factual errors aside, I take issue with this ignorance especially when it causes “mistrust, resentment and loathing”.

    Using your process as a template, can you honestly (and objectively) extract the main points from your article and fit them into this:

    Person X says this
    Here’s why they believe this
    Here’s where I agree
    Here’s where I disagree
    Conclusion

    You still haven’t answered any poster that has asked you what you would do if Allardyce/Hodgson et al were put in charge of Man U and the results, along with the quality of football, took a nose dive.

    Have a good weekend! There’s some football on I believe.

  22. Tom Addison says:

    @ Dennis: That was one match, which a team can/cannot deserve to win, based on possession, chances created etc etc. I’m not saying United are entitled so success, but some could argue that we deserved/should have won that particular match (although I reckon that’s debatable, it’s our own fault we lost our heads)

    And as I made clear in the article, every fan has their fickle idiots. I wouldn’t mind a prolonged period of mediocrity in order to root some of them out, but would I really want to see my club suffer in that way just to get rid of some fickle fans? I don’t know, they’re still enjoying themselves, they’re entitled to it.

    @ Rubbish: Yes, I’m well aware of the factual error, but I still don’t think that it invalidates the core part of my arguement. Do I think Liverpool should get Allardyce? No, there’s better alternatives out there with more potential to succeed, such as Riijkard and Rangnick.

    @ Genghis: Unfortunately, as you’re well aware, we United fans cannot prove that we’d still have loyal support nowadays even if we were to get relegated tomorrow, and you’re fully taking advantage of that. During dry patches not all fans are whinging because they thinik they’re entitled to success, for some it’s because, given their resources, they should be doing better. That’s why I agreed Mark Hughes had to go from City, given the resources he was given he should have done better. Mancini, however, I believe is the man for City.

    @ Real Red: I’ll agree Hodgson didn’t appreciate the needs and wants of the Liverpool fans, such as not biting back at Fergie when he accused Torres of some “foul-play”. But there’s a fine line between not appreciating all the needs of the fans and the fans just being a hard bunch to please.

    I wouldn’t be too quick to place any reliance on a Fifa ranking, but agreed, Rafa isn’t as bad as they all say. He had to deal with some real crap at Liverpool, but he certainly has some man-management and personality deficiencies that need to be sorted out if he wants to avoid another Inter scenario.

    Haven’t been on Tomkins site because you have to pay for it, but I have just ordered his book. I’m a big fan of the Guardian Chalkboards, I’ve written a few articles on here making use of them, but I’m sure you’re well aware that they’re merely a means to the ends, there’s more to tactics than someone’s pass completion rate. Movement is the most important thing, and the best you can get to seeing that statistically is a “Total Distance Ran” figure or an average position chart.

    Yes Barclay has been loyal to Hodgson, but even so he makes some compelling arguments when he explains why. And don’t be OTT, not all, or even a significant proportion of the media have been in support of Hodgson, not sure if you ever check mediawatch on Football365 or the comment and analysis round up on 101 Great Goals, but many in the media have had the knives out for Hodgson for quite a while.

    That Robbie Keane quote wasn’t mine, let me point out, that’s from one of the referenced articles, you’ll have to take it up with him! But also agree that, in this question, it’s much easier to criticse foreigners and their “typical” ways.

    I’m not surprised Hodgson carries no weight with some foreigners, particularly Spaniards, his football derives from the Charles Reep/Graham Taylor/Eriksson method of the 70s and 80s, but there’s more than one way of playing football. It irritates me massively when players think they know more than a manager, such as John Terry criticising Fabio Capello, a man who won the European Cup by beating Johan Cruyff’s Barcelona 4-0 in the final. But yes, Liverpool do have the players and resources to play better football than the 4-4-2 “numbers” game, but the players shouldn’t have been so quick to lose respect.

  23. Tom Addison says:

    No Ian, I have done:

    Here’s what I believe and why
    Here’s what person x, y, z believes and why
    Conclusion acknowledging some limitations

    Research doesn’t have to be quantitative you know, you can’t quantify the cognitive biases that people possess, yet you’d still factor them into formulating your arguements. I’ve made a point and cited my reasons for reaching that belief, and I have referenced Paddy Barclay’s similar belief and how he too reached that conclusion (which appears to be similar in some respects).

    If Hodgson or Allardyce were put in charge of United, I’d first wipe the slate clean. Just because a manager has messed up at once place doesn’t mean they will do at the next place, all managers need to make mistakes at some point, the best ones learn from them. That’s why I hope Roy Keane isn’t completely written off as a manager following his spell at Ipswich.

    I’d then hear them out regarding their philosophies of how they want the team to play and what they want to achieve, and then give them time and the benefit of the doubt in doing so. Think of Arrigo Sacchi, methods such as his take a long time to implement.

    After several months I’d then judge if the club has made any signs of progress, such as a change in the style of play (but that’s assuming that the old style was inferior, change isn’t always required). But if it became obvious after a while that the tactics were naive, that youth development was a low priority and the manager lacked the “soft” skills to cope at the top, then I’d call for his head, maybe, my analysis may still be wrong and I’d be willing to listen to counter-arguments.

    I’m sure many Liverpool fans did the above in judging Hodgson, but some were way way too quick to get on his back, and it merely made things worse and more difficult him, which only further “proved” their point. As I said, self-fulfilled prophecy.

    Have a good weekend too, the FA Cup third round weekend is one of the special ones.

  24. POOL OF LIFE says:

    AND WHO GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO MENTION THE MIGHTY REDS ????? STICK TO YOUR OWN SWAMP DWELLING PIGEONEATING, SELF IMPORTANT COBBELPLODDERS , BETTER STILL , GO AND POSE THIS Q TO MUTV !!!! SEE IF YOU GET AN ANSWER //..,, ,,//,, YNWA , PAST , PRESENT AND FUTURE

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